Competition time: round 2

Here’s a tricky one for you: which SNP parliamentary candidate, according to The Times, describes Hamas suicide bombings as “martyrdom operations”?

Advertisements

20 Comments

Filed under Alex Salmond, Media, Politics, SNP

20 responses to “Competition time: round 2

  1. Tom, if you want to be seen as being on the same side as the Dean Godson’s of this world then so be it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Godson

    And also, if you want to contribute to shooting down the career of a very intelligent, very capable young man who could make a big difference without raising the level of debate above a cheap ‘hit and run’ then, quite frankly, shame on you.

  2. Jane Spencer

    Quoting third hand Tom? That seems to be a bit dangerous for a Labour Minister to be engaging in such idle speculation.

    Surely you’re not panicking in the heat of the by-election?

  3. Wrinkled Weasel

    There are two elements to this story.

    There is no way this is good news for Alex Salmond but you have welcomed this story with such relish and a side order of fries. It wouldn’t have anything to do with a by election near you, would it?

    Let’s face it, bad as the story is, every party has candidates who subsequently turn out to be embarrassing. Not so long ago, it was Miranda Grell for Labour, who perpetrated what amounted to a criminal libel by making extraordinarily nasty homophobic remarks about the Lib Dem candidate.

    Strangely, you have followed the line in the press about croneyism and the cash element, which is to skirt around the central problem which is Mr Saeed and his agenda.

    On reading an article by him in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/01/religion.world) it is clear he has a Muslim agenda, ahead of any national political association, since, a Caliphate is a de facto political institution. (He more or less argues a case for that definition.) He should be deselected, on the basis that he is clearly a Muslim activist and will neither serve the interests of Scotland or the Scottish people and Alex Salmond must admit he has made an error.

  4. Politico

    I am sorry, but when the mainstream Scottish party (and government) openly support a fundamentalist; financially and philosophically – those links must be exposed.

    For shame on the SNP and their unilateral disarmament folly – allowing the space for Saeed and his ilk time to create their beloved caliphate. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/01/religion.world)

    Caliph…..Fuhrer.

    There is after all only one nation and people that fundamentalists hate more than the west.

  5. Thanks for the link Politico, it’s a fascinating read and doesn’t in any way tread on my earlier points regarding Tom’s conduct nor does it change my mind on the fact that Osama Saeed will be a great political figure and thinker for Scotland, and the wider world, in the future.

  6. Politico

    If you think this person has Scotland interests at heart – you are gravely mistaken. When you argue for the creation of a state that challenges Western hegemony – you are not welcome.

  7. Sorry Jeff, you need to bean up on Islamism to get the wider picture. Read Sayyid Qutb’s Milestones; Mevlana Maududi. Bean up about the Muslim Brotherhood and its links to Hamas and Hezbollah. There is a whole vast ideology and literature out there to which OS is well connected. I have researched Saeed long enough to be satisfied that he is only playing the nationalist card to further an Islamist career. The fact that he uses the political system rather than bombs us kufr means nothing.

    He is no friend of secular western liberal democracy.

    He blocks people out of his blog who ask searching but polite questions, just as he condemns people as ‘hecklers’ in public debates who do the same. He also evades and sidesteps awkward issues in interviews when he can’t freeeze people out. This evasion, by using lofty abstraction, is typical Muslim Brotherhood tactics, as when Tariq Ramadan, in response to Nicholas Sarkozy’s close questioning on the hudud practices in the Quran, suggested ‘We could hold a moratarium on stoning’. And Sarkozy, aghast, replied: ‘A moratorium?’

    You are desperate to find an acceptable face of modern Islam but this isn’t it.

    I grant that he is an able politician but not all able politicians are forces for the greater public good. Salmond is a case in point!

    Saeed has an out and out Islamist agenda and this will not improve relations between Muslims and non-Muslims or bring healing and peace.

  8. SNP WATCH

    This must be exposed – Salmond has made a grave political error….

  9. Jeff – Osama may well be a sensible, intelligent person. Alternatively, he may believe that Hamas suicide bombers are engaged in “martyrdom operations”. Which is it? It certainly can’t be both.

  10. Jane Spencer

    I’m sure you will find a first hand quote where he says suicide bombings are “martyrdom operations” rather than quoting from a neo-con idiot?

  11. SNP WATCH

    “The vision of any kind of new caliphate, shared by Muslims worldwide, is a distant one. Right now, even talk of bringing down trade barriers and free flow of people across Muslim states seems radical. But it is a vision that is needed, and one that should actually be supported by the US and Britain if they are sincere about the development of the Muslim world. The revival of a strong Muslim civilisation would be for the betterment of the whole world.”

    Jane…….his words exactly. If that does not strike fear into your heart that this person is an actual would be British politician; i don’t know what would.

    The day of the BNP is going to come on swift wings if the mainstream are hanging about with that lot….

  12. Alasdair

    Devorgilla says:

    You are desperate to find an acceptable face of modern Islam but this isn’t it.

    According to who? That’s a bit of a sweeping statement.

    It strikes me that every religious organisation has it’s fundamentalist or extremist elements and that Islam is no different. I don’t think that the limited experience that most of us in the West have of Islam is any excuse for such blinkered thinking.

    I really struggle to understand those who take such a stance against an entire people. Could we not say the same about Protestants given the actions of a minority within the Orange order? Or perhaps all Catholics are evil because of the antics of the IRA?

    It’s the same bigoted stereotyping that some people in this country seem to be so keen on and that we’ve seen for a blinkin’ age. Come on, grow up.

    The fact that he uses the political system rather than bombs us kufr means nothing.

    So what would you propose? Only those who share our ‘indigenous’ political, ideological, belief systems should be allowed to stand for election?

    Personally I’d rather that those who wished to change things did it by political means than by violent ones, bu’hey, I’m strange like that …

    Saeed has an out and out Islamist agenda and this will not improve relations between Muslims and non-Muslims or bring healing and peace.

    I don’t know anything about Saeed, however, I’m sure there are plenty of politicians with ‘out and out’ Christian agenda, would you level similar charges against them?

    Tom says:

    Osama may well be a sensible, intelligent person. Alternatively, he may believe that Hamas suicide bombers are engaged in “martyrdom operations”. Which is it? It certainly can’t be both.

    Can’t it? Surely a suicide bomber is on a “martyrdom operation”, they believe that they are martyrs for their cause therefore the operation which they are performing falls within what might reasonabley be labelled “martyrdom operation”. You don’t need to like it (and I don’t), but from an objective point of view they’re one and the same.

    A “martyrdom operation” implies a deliberate act of self-sacrificial suicide … a suicide bombing for instance.

  13. Alasdair

    The vision of any kind of new caliphate, shared by Muslims worldwide, is a distant one. Right now, even talk of bringing down trade barriers and free flow of people across Muslim states seems radical. But it is a vision that is needed, and one that should actually be supported by the US and Britain if they are sincere about the development of the Muslim world. The revival of a strong Muslim civilisation would be for the betterment of the whole world

    I’m not sure what this quote provided by SNP Watch is suppossed to prove. Sounds like it’s someone wishing to pursue a bit of stability rather than anything else …

  14. SNP watch

    Then you are a mad man.

    The Muslim world opposes EVERYTHING the west stands for. Human rights, democracy, woman equality, Israel, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE and of course – they also have their own doctrine of pre-emptive offensive warfare – jihad (conveniently disguised as a holy struggle) – but the very fact that religion is weaved into the fabric of the state shows their intentions…..

  15. Alasdair

    SNP watch,

    Pre-emptive offensive warfare is current UK and US policy, and let’s not forget that Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq (how long before we see preemptive strikes against Iran?) … I’m sure Blair muttered something about it as well, although I may be imagining that bit.

    Seperation of church and state isn’t as simple as that. Arguabely the very bastion of the western world that is the US isn’t a stones throw away from being a theocracy itself.

    As to the state of my mental health, well, I’m not the one making grandiose and sweeping statments, but thanks for your concern.

    Perhaps, ‘SNP watch’ you’d like to explain why the passage you quoted is so bad, because nothing you’ve said can be attributed to it.

  16. SNP Watch

    Alasdair – History is mankind’s best teacher.

  17. Devorgilla – I agree that I probably do need to “bean up” on my Islamism so thanks for the suggestions, I’ll look into them.

    Tom – I simply disagree that a politician can’t be both intelligent/sensible and see Hamas activity as ‘martyrdom operations’. We (or I should say ‘you’ given your position) need to widen the level of debate to allow all opinions and all ideas into the room.

    As for the Caliphate suggestion, I’ve too much to say about it to clog up Mr Harris’ comments board so I wrote a blog post instead ->

    http://snptacticalvoting.blogspot.com/2008/07/osama-saeed-and-fortress-europe.html

    Cheers!

  18. Alasdair:
    ‘I really struggle to understand those who take such a stance against an entire people. ‘

    No Alasdair, you totally misunderstand the concerns and badly need to bean up on this debate.

    Firstly, Muslims are not a ‘people’ but a religion of many, many ethnic groups. As Islam has spread over 14 centuries across the globe only a minority of Muslims today are Arabs (less than 20%). The rest are Turks, Iranians, Africans, Indians, Indonesians, even Europeans.

    Secondly, I am no way opposed to Muslims. I merely make a distinction between Muslims and Islam (ordinary folks, ordinary religion) and Islamists, like Osama Saeed, and Islamism (a twisted political creed).

    Islamists have an out and out political agenda. Ordinary Muslims just want to draw close to God.

    What is Islamism? Briefly it is a 20th century political ideology which uses Quranic sources to justify a political takeover of the world. It is therefore a bogus post-Quranic construction which owes a great deal in its style and system to fascism and totalitarianism on which it draws heavily: one of its leading exponents, Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem between the wars, was a collaborator with Hitler as were other leading members of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded 1928, and now going strong. Surely you’ve heard of the MB? No? Then find out!

    If you read Ed Husain’s The Islamist, he explains how he recovered the pure and loving Islam of his childhood after his teenage dalliance with Islamism in Hizbut Tahrir. It explains it all. Read it.

    Husain realised eventually just how bogus, wicked and corrupt Islamism was. Now he campaigns against it and has set up the Quilliam Foundation to counteract it and promote a benevolent tolerant liberal British Islam. Unsurprisingly, his efforts are scoffed at by the likes of reactionaries like Osama Saeed and his mentor the discredited Azzam Tamimi.

    Pity Alex Salmond hasn’t read the book. But then ‘smart Alex’ knows it all, eh Alex? I mean, it’s not like you need to be better informed, is it? Gosh, what it must be like to be a genius like you!

  19. Alasdair

    Devorgilla,

    Firstly, Muslims are not a ‘people’ but a religion of many, many ethnic groups.

    Thankyou. I was a ware of that. I was using ‘people’ as a generic term for a grouping under a single banner … maybe I should have been clearer but there you go.

    Yes I am aware of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    What is Islamism? Briefly it is a 20th century political ideology which uses Quranic sources to justify a political takeover of the world. It is therefore a bogus post-Quranic construction which owes a great deal in its style and system to fascism and totalitarianism on which it draws heavily

    This I wasn’t aware of and I may make efforts to verify.

    Regardless though, would you prefer people to bomb you or get involved in the political process?

  20. Alasdair:
    ‘Regardless though, would you prefer people to bomb you or get involved in the political process?’

    Of course not. But what most people don’t appreciate is that they both have the same goal which is to destroy western secular liberal democracy and replace it with an intolerant global ‘Islam’ (meaning ‘Islamism’) under a Caliph. Criticism of Islam will be forbidden and non-Muslims will be second class citizens. Mad, I know, but try telling them that. We could always convert though! Are you keen to become a Muslim Alasdair? They would be delighted. That is their plan for you.

    The two wings of the political Islamist movement – the revolutionary, and the gradualist – only differ over tactics. The Al Quaeda boys are disavowed by the MB lot like Saeed merely because the MB lot think that AQ’s tactics are likely to make the goal fail.

    So their plan is to convince gullible or unscrupulous politicians that ‘you need to talk to us and we will steer the youth away from violent extremism’. What they don’t let on about is that they will continue to promote a fundamentalist form of Islam – Islamism – whose end game is still the overthrow of the kuffar and replacement of democracry with global Islam.

    Saeed is not part of the solution but part of the problem.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s